Interview: Jeremy Carl on Tokenism and Racism That Americans Ignore

Jeremy Carl is an author, political commentator, policy advisor, and former civil servant. He is a senior fellow at the Claremont Institute, where he examines nationalism, immigration, technology, and other subjects.

Previously, he was Deputy Assistant Secretary of the Interior under President Trump and a research fellow at the Hoover Institution.

His new book on anti-white racism, “The Unprotected Class,” can be found on Amazon. Jeremy is on X @realJeremyCarl and at his Substack: The Course of Empire. This interview was edited for clarity and conciseness.

Ari: What encouraged you to take on the issue of anti-white racism?

Jeremy: It needs to stop being controversial and stigmatized. “We shouldn't be racist against white people” should not be a controversial statement.

I believed that if I laid out the best set of arguments for why anti-white racism is wrong and what we should do about it, it would have a positive effect and move the Overton window.

Ari: How have you better articulated this issue than others who discuss anti-white racism, especially those on the opposite side of the aisle?

Jeremy: Liberals still freak out. New York Magazine covered my speech at the National Conservatism Conference, and they were tearing out their hair over my “extremism.”

Extremists are not my audience. My audience is the average Republican or independent voter. I am trying to convince them that discussing anti-white racism is acceptable.

I was very deliberate about the book’s rollout and about the types of people I was fortunate enough to get endorsements from. I tried to be as evenhanded and non-histrionic as possible in writing it. The best thing we did in editing was remove sections that triggered a strong emotional reaction.

A phrase in law, res ipsa loquitur, means “the thing speaks for itself.” The facts spoke for themselves — there was no need to wave my arms and scream. I presented the facts in a very calm, persuasive, and open-minded manner, hoping to reach people I hadn't reached. I've been successful, and that’s gratifying.

Ari: Why don’t people talk about anti-white racism, even when they experience it?

Jeremy: Culture is powerful, and the left controls the commanding heights of the culture. The “white pill” is that people are talking now. Even in the two years since I started writing the book, people are more comfortable speaking about it.

The good part is that we’re talking; the bad part is we're talking because the situation got so desperate it couldn't be ignored. The levels of discrimination and racism, particularly in young white people being frozen out of institutions, was a breaking point. I decided to speak out.

Ari: Do you think the Overton window moved in response to race-based COVID policies or affirmative action controversies?

Jeremy: The change is overdetermined, as social scientists would say. A variety of factors are at play, and it's hard to tell which influenced this situation and to what degree.

Race-based COVID treatments, which I discuss in my chapter on health care, were so shocking and overt because they were life and death. Conversely, the George Floyd craziness may have moved the needle for many people.

Some factors go back earlier to the Civil Rights Era, affirmative action in the workplace, or disparate impact theory.

Ari: Was there a noticeable shift in discourse after Oct. 7, especially because of how moderate Democrats talk? Many high-profile figures set their sights on “woke” ideology after realizing it caused campus antisemitism.

Jeremy: For the Jewish community, there is a long history of thinking the next outrage will cause a shift — and then being disappointed. New people are brought along with each outrage, and this is a big outrage.

While some post-Oct. 7 antisemitism on campuses was traditional Arab or Muslim antisemitism, the nice 21-year-old co-ed from the Midwest was not in an encampment because she read Mein Kampf.

She was there because she incorporated the idea that Israelis are Jews, Jews are white, and whites are bad. Palestinians are brown, and brown is good. Therefore, she knows who the good and bad guys are. Bill Ackman and other prominent figures said most campus antisemitism is downstream from anti-white racism.

These students don’t understand that many Israelis are not white. Those familiar with Israel know that is a ridiculous oversimplification. One way terrorists infiltrate Israel is they look similar to Israelis. That calculation doesn't enter the minds of campus protesters.

Ari: Do you think Republicans tokenize black Americans by having them speak about anti-white racism? Is that effective?

Jeremy: I have strong opinions on that topic. When I decided to write the book, my conservative friends often reacted with some version of “That's great, but Candace Owens should write this.” They meant the Candace Owens of two years ago, not the more controversial version of today.

I felt very strongly that white people needed to make this argument on our own behalf, without apology and without relying on minorities as proxies.

Unfortunately, they were correct to use Asian instead of white plaintiffs to appeal to the five white conservative justices in the Supreme Court affirmative action case.

I deliberately sought a multiracial cast of endorsers for the book because I'm sending a message to all Americans. I'm not writing a white nationalist treatise. I'm writing a defense of white people in America being treated equally under the law and in social life — something everybody should support.

Ari: Do you think recent Supreme Court victories will impact how our culture approaches these issues?

Jeremy: Sometimes politics is downstream from culture. Sometimes culture is downstream from politics. If you don't control the commanding heights of culture, winning can be difficult.

However, the law matters. In my book The Unprotected Class, I discuss how anti-white racism became so severe because it was codified into civil rights law. If we abolished all civil rights laws, many problems would still exist. Those laws helped instantiate anti-white racism; however, anti-white racism no longer depends on the law to exist.

Anti-white discrimination does need the law to continue. But I'm skeptical that the Supreme Court’s affirmative action decision will have the effect people think. California outlawed affirmative action twice in 25 years. Yet, an examination of its university admissions shows persistent discrimination.

Universities and other institutions that want to discriminate against white people will be clever at finding ways, unless aggressively challenged in court.

Ari: Didn’t some California universities spend millions researching how to circumvent the affirmative action ruling?

Jeremy: That’s not all they did. They were taken by surprise during the first years following the ban. But eventually, they figured out how to game the system and began discriminating again.

Cal State, Los Angeles, is only 3 percent white. I guarantee that school does not offer beneficial scholarships for white students as an underrepresented minority. Diversity is about fewer white people. It is not about creating diversity.

Ari: How do college applicants navigate the current landscape?

Jeremy: Opt out of the system with respect to the worst actors. If you sense an institution is hell-bent on discriminating against you, find a different one.

Over the last decade, there has been incredible growth in selection of schools like Hillsdale College. This is anecdotal, but Southern Methodist University is another school that white kids with strong academic records are preferring to the Ivy League. Alternative schools like the University of Austin will also experience growth.

Hopefully, we can devalue the social prestige of elite institutions, but they're good at retaining it.

Ari: What are you optimistic about?

Jeremy: I'm optimistic that we're having this conversation. Over breakfast, I spoke about the book to 17 congressmen, went on Matt Gaetz's podcast, and received good reviews and sales. Chris Rufo, one of the most effective opponents of DEI, endorsed the book. The Republican Party of the third largest city in my state is featuring me as the keynote speaker at its annual dinner.

I'm optimistic that more white people, particularly young white people most victimized by the current regime, are talking about this.

Ari: How long before Democrats care?

Jeremy: That’s another reason for optimism. As dumb and self-defeating as white Democrats are, the anti-white discrimination that is part and parcel of their party is so extreme that a significant chunk of white Democrats will opt out eventually.

This is not a black-white issue. Lots of races are involved. The obsessive focus on African Americans as first among equals in the Democrat Party will not sit well with Asian and Hispanic Americans who still vote predominantly Democrat.

Some already left the party, most significantly Hispanic Americans. Asian Americans may eventually make the same choice. Look at the ridiculous reparations debate in California.

In theory, not just white taxpayers of California but Hispanic and Asian American taxpayers as well would be asked to front a huge reparations bill for their alleged crimes. Hispanic Americans now comprise a plurality of Californians. The left can’t sustain this type of idiocy.